Reading about sex work

[orneryjoe]

A fairly informative website that deals primarily with testosterone deficiency syndrome.

Information is presented simply and clearly.

Started by the Bayer HealthCare group.

[orneryjoe]

11 (not 12 -- there was one zap for another thread) zaps and 8 ups -- thanks Snuber and machoman for the latest ups.

Out of moderation zone too. Incentive to work slightly harder.

Cheers.

[orneryjoe]

Originally Posted by machoman

Actually, I thought that Sweden were extremely liberal in the sex industry but I was surprised when I recently learned from a Swede that a patron was deemed to have committed an offence if he engages the sex services.

What he told me was that the sex workers can sell but if you buy, you have broken the law.

The Swedes are liberal and progressive -- just that their logic appears to be warped. Because they see sex work as exploitative of women, they have resorted to going after the men who patronise sex workers instead. The logic is warped because they have chosen to ignore the views of sex workers who insist on their right and freedom to work in the sex industry.

In religiously conservative countries such as those in the Middle East however, sex work is seen as a sin and therefore the buyer and seller are subject to punishment.

Netherlands is a good contrastive example of another liberal and progressive country where sex work is tolerated and regulated. This seems to make more rational sense than criminalisation which only drives the trade underground.

Like the Netherlands, Singapore is also a believer in the regulation of sex work. The recent spate of raids by the AV is probably a knee jerk reaction to Uncle Sam's charge that we are doing little to stop human trafficking. Which is probably false because most of the foreign sex workers here choose to come because of the money to be made.

Singapore is less liberal in the sense that pimping is also considered an offence whereas it is not so in the Netherlands.

[Glock]

Originally Posted by machoman

Actually, I thought that Sweden were extremely liberal in the sex industry but I was surprised when I recently learned from a Swede that a patron was deemed to have committed an offence if he engages the sex services.

What he told me was that the sex workers can sell but if you buy, you have broken the law.

all this bullshit ... if I want to be in a place where women are always right and it is always the man's fault , i might as well stay in singapore :-P

at least singapore government understands reality a bit and allows some outlet (for men who are not stupid enough to marry a singapore woman . or are just lucky )

Originally Posted by igor88

And your purpose of this thread ???

looks like the purpose of this thread is to actually have an adult discussion about sex , instead of schoolboys wasting time posting sex fantasy stories they come up with for other schoolboys to PCC , which for some reason seems to be what "Adult Discussions about Sex" seem to mostly be about

[orneryjoe]

Ouch... just received another zap with the rather strange remark that "you are only speaking for yourself".

This is obviously false, because I try to draw attention to some readings on sex work and include links to these readings to let the readings speak for themselves. I also include my own comments and so, yes, in the case of these comments I am speaking for myself. Who else should I be speaking for?

But perhaps the zapper meant that I am only speaking TO myself.

Again, not true because some bros have responded to this thread. Besides, even if I am speaking to myself, that would be fine because I start this thread to inform and interest others, but also as a personal project to examine a subject that I personally find interesting. One can actually learn a lot by talking to oneself!

[orneryjoe]

Warning -- this is a very substantive reading, so don't blame me if you get a headache from trying to understand it!

The reading may be found here.

It is a philosophical essay that attempts to make out the case why prostitution is wrong.

The writer realises that all the usual, moralistic arguments against sex work are weak. Instead he attempts to use a rather subtle argument to show why prostitution is bad: that sex workers have to put up an act in their line of work and therefore sex work is not an authentic line of work that supports genuine self-expression.

The sex worker is also compared to the house negro ("Uncle Tom") whose compliance perpetuates the racist belief that blacks are, indeed, inferior. Likewise, sex workers perpetuate the belief that women are there to be taken advantage of.

Overall, I find the writer's objections to be extremely tenuous. For instance, arguably, the relationship between the buyer and seller of sex is in fact more equal than exploitative, and can even be based upon mutual respect. For the customer, the sex worker may be viewed as a valuable service provider even worthy of admiration.

The reading only serves to reinforce my belief that there are no really strong rational arguments that can be mounted against sex work.

[orneryjoe]

This is a substantive reading which is available here.

It attempts to argue that there are legitimate reasons for the movement of workers from one country to another, and that the whole issue should not be simplified as one of pure trafficking.

As part of her case, the writer Laura M Augustin argues that sex work should be considered as a legitimate form of work (classified as "services") that now largely goes unrecognised in the European context.

I agree with her entirely.

[arsenal_84]

while is good to understand them but too often women in this trade have a very complicated mind or wrap logic if you ask me.
most started with the thought of quitting this trade eventually when they get older but how many has the will power to stop doing so ?
when the going gets tough, the lure of going back to sell their pussies again is after all a human reaction by them to survive against all odds.

[Frankiestine]

Originally Posted by orneryjoe

As part of her case, the writer Laura M Augustin argues that sex work should be considered as a legitimate form of work (classified as "services") that now largely goes unrecognised in the European context.
I agree with her entirely.

I can't remember where was it but I once read an article where the authorities wanted to tax sex workers for their earnings....even in little red dot here, the authorities do not tax okt cos it is considered immoral earnings and it is as good as giving themselves a slap in the face if they do tax. After all one of the laws under the woman charter actually states that it is an offense to live off a earning of a prostitute.

[orneryjoe]

Because sex work is legitimate in the Netherlands, some of the sex workers there pay taxes in exchange for the social benefits they enjoy.

[Frankiestine]

I did once went to Amsterdam and saw all the ladies on display in the windows. Indeed it was a real eye opener. Unfortunately I was there with OC for honeymoon so couldn't actually do anything else except viewing.

[jacky43]

I went thru all postings, including mine too, not a bad discussion. Somehow i think we overlooked an important part of this circle. I am talking about the direction from the LAW. The enforcement the AV, the gov of this country, how would they wish to move the industry to another level.

I am no Lawman, u see i would arrest the FLs and, discourage WLs from continue her trade. After she complete her payment, hold on we did come across many doc on TV. Indonesia gov had some sort of yellow ribbon projects to help ex call girls. The % that move on, we have no hard figures from them.

The OKTs, yes brothers! Those arrested charged in court, somehow i think they return back to former jobs. Now certain degress, the OKT fuctions as managers. Their contributions are many, we could imagine several of them but, we have not dare to touch on the important subject of all. Which is..

OKTs are making tons of $ from the system, upon arrested they paid fines serve time. So be it, this people are experience so much so, i guess the Poly young punk made more as a pimp then as an Engineer. Some people undertand the logic of all, but i would never go into a business of SIN.

AV had not arrested much OKTs, or perhaps they need this people to maintain the peace? Certain degrees, few WLs told me, they would never wish to go against her operators. So in the morale senses is wrong, not so on the sides of the authority.

[orneryjoe]

So far as the law is concerned, some governments are more moralistic than others. Traditionally religious communities such as those in the Middle East would frown upon sex work as being sinful and would thus prohibit such activities. Buyer and seller of sex work in such communities face fairly heavy punishment if caught.

In secular communities, the policy is usually one of tolerance and containment. There is the tacit recognition that sex work is a function of supply and demand. At the same time, it may also be perceived as a nuisance if it threatens to intrude upon conventional social life -- thus the ban on solicitation in Singapore, for instance. The policy of containment is also out of respect for the religious and moralistic sensitivities of some of the citizens within such communities.

In some developed communities, any kind of sex work is perceived as demeaning against women, whether or not the women in the trade realise it. One consequence of such a perception is the prosecution of buyers, but not sellers of sex work, since the latter are perceived as victims. Sweden is one country which adopts such an "advanced" attitude.

In my version of an ideal world, sex work is seen as having a legitimate place in society. Sex workers are recognised as providers of a valuable service operating discreetly so as not to be a public nuisance. No one should be forced into the trade and all sex workers should be at least 18 years old.

Just my preliminary thoughts about the issue.

[chuckiedick]

Originally Posted by orneryjoe

So far as the law is concerned, some governments are more moralistic than others. Traditionally religious communities such as those in the Middle East would frown upon sex work as being sinful and would thus prohibit such activities. Buyer and seller of sex work in such communities face fairly heavy punishment if caught.

In secular communities, the policy is usually one of tolerance and containment. There is the tacit recognition that sex work is a function of supply and demand. At the same time, it may also be perceived as a nuisance if it threatens to intrude upon conventional social life -- thus the ban on solicitation in Singapore, for instance. The policy of containment is also out of respect for the religious and moralistic sensitivities of some of the citizens within such communities.

In some developed communities, any kind of sex work is perceived as demeaning against women, whether or not the women in the trade realise it. One consequence of such a perception is the prosecution of buyers, but not sellers of sex work, since the latter are perceived as victims. Sweden is one country which adopts such an "advanced" attitude.

In my version of an ideal world, sex work is seen as having a legitimate place in society. Sex workers are recognised as providers of a valuable service operating discreetly so as not to be a public nuisance. No one should be forced into the trade and all sex workers should be at least 18 years old.

Just my preliminary thoughts about the issue.

Kindly please do not put such thought out in the open. Some people might have some ideas about it.

[orneryjoe]

I enjoyed reading this story, and I think it makes a lot of sense.